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DfE Digital, Data and Technology is part of the Department for Education. We aim to deliver world-class services that improve the outcomes of children and learners in education and care. This podcast series shines a light on the human stories behind our digital and technology projects. You’ll hear about how we build and run our services, their impact, and the lessons learnt along the way. You’ll also get an insight into the people who work here and the culture we’re building.
Episodes
Wednesday Dec 21, 2022
Insight for people applying to be a senior civil servant
Wednesday Dec 21, 2022
Wednesday Dec 21, 2022
This episode is all about recruitment into the senior Civil Service (SCS).
In this episode we hear from former colleagues Emma Stace, Chief digital and technology officer, and Jack Collier, Head of digital for schools services.
This is an honest and personal look at Emma and Jack's experiences and what they’ve learnt along the way. Not everyone is comfortable with networking and here they talk about alternative ways to getting yourself known, headhunting, other people's expectations, and leadership more broadly.
They share top tips for those starting in a SCS role. So if you’re considering applying, this is a great episode for you.
Transcription
[intro music plays]
Adaobi Ifeachor Hello. Welcome to Think digital act human, a podcast from the Department for Education where we tell the everyday stories of digital specialists working on extraordinary projects.
Today we have a returning guest, our podcast sponsor, and the Head of digital for school services in Manchester, Jack Collier. Hey, Jack, welcome back.
Jack Collier Hello. Thank you for having me.
Adaobi Ifeachor You look very rested or very energised. That's probably because you are speaking to our listeners. So this is going to be a little bit different from the last time you were on, because I think we were talking about ways of building like workplace culture, like a healthy culture, particularly when you were living in a post-pandemic hybrid world. Well, now season 2 is all about recruitment. And we wanted an episode where we were basically talking about senior recruitment, senior to the Civil Service. People have aspirations to join the senior civil service or to join a senior level company and we're hoping that the advice that we share today will really help those people, people with those kinds of aspirations. And we actually have lined up some sound bites from another special guest, Emma Stace.
Listener announcement. This is your host, Adobe speaking. As you listen to this episode, you'll hear a [music plays] sound. We're using this to let you know that a pre-recorded clip is about to be played. It'll also play to signal the end of the clip. Now back to the episode, enjoy.
Dear listeners, you will remember that we spoke to Emma back on our very first episode of this podcast. At the time, she was our Chief digital and technology officer. Before she left, she decided to share some very interesting titbits that we're going to discuss today Jack. I hope you're excited.
Jack Collier I am. I am. And clearly, those titbits worked for Emma. Let's see what we can glean from them.
Adaobi Ifeachor Let's go straight to the very first clip. And after that, we'll have a discussion and we'll find out a bit more about you, too, Jack.
[music plays] Well let's dig into this, this idea of senior recruitment verses non senior recruitment. I do want to say like I don't want to say anything that sounds derogatory because that's not what I mean. And obviously I'm in the kind of regular, regular recruitment bucket myself. So what would you say is the main difference here? In my mind, I'm thinking it's like, regular recruitment you're applying for things a lot. Senior recruitment you're being headhunted and invited to apply and that sort of stuff. Is that right?
Emma Stace So let's let's just pick up this idea of senior recruitment. So, I think to your point, you know, particularly in the Civil Service, we have this idea of, you know, the senior Civil Service. And I think probably a better way to frame it is leadership positions, not that everyone isn’t a leader and can influence within an organization, But I think a senior position for me is a position where the impacts in the organisation that you can deliver is beyond your own individual role. That people are looking at you a lot in a leadership position. So I think maybe let's frame it as ‘what do leadership roles look’ like as opposed to senior roles? Because I think, I worry, that even that language makes these roles inaccessible to some people and some people start to kind of go, well it's kind of not for me. Because it sounds very imposing, doesn't it? A senior role. [music plays]
Adaobi Ifeachor So, Jack, what are your first thoughts having listened to that clip? Leadership, not senior, is where you feel you fit in - leadership.
Jack Collier 100% Adaobi. So I completely agree with Emma on this. And my view of it is that the Civil Service has a very, very strange mentality around grades and around structure and around hierarchy, which I think is not helpful in the 21st century. It's 2022. My job title is Deputy Director for School Services. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't describe what I do at all. It's a grade. It's not a job. Where Emma talks in that clip about leadership, not senior Civil Service roles. I agree that the term senior Civil Service creates a barrier to people applying, to people thinking that they could do that role, whereas some thought leadership is far more accessible. And I think it describes far better what it is that you would be doing in that role as well. And I mean, my personal story is that I am not senior in an age sense whatsoever. I actually joined the DfE as a deputy director when I was 27. And I think for people, yeah, for people that are maybe a little bit more dyed in the wool Civil Servants, that is a very strange thing to have happened. I think there's a sense that you have to have done your time and you've got to have worked your way up the grades and through the ranks, as it were. And, you know, I don't I don't believe that's true. And I don't believe that's true for anyone else either. I applied for the job because I was interested in the job itself, not in the grade. And that's why I think the term senior Civil Servant can create a barrier. And the way Emma describes it there about leadership is perfect.
Adaobi Ifeachor I do remember meeting you and thinking, ‘who is this fresh faced, 19 year old work experience lad’? When you say that you came in the Civil Service at 27, was that, you saw a job and you applied or were you going through that, that Fast Stream process, which is a bit like a graduate scheme?
Jack Collier Yeah. So I joined the DfE when I was 27. I joined the Civil Service straight out of university exactly on the Fast Stream, which is the graduate programme. I actually joined as a policymaker, not in a digital role, and I was able to work on climate change policy, which was really exciting. It's exactly kind of the kind of thing I wanted to do. And interestingly, the policy that I was working on was it was a huge failure.
Adaobi Ifeachor Oh no, what happened there?
Jack Collier Well after that I joined a digital team and I thought really interestingly that policy failed because no one really thought about users. No one really designed that policy with users at the centre and thinking about how we can meet user needs through the policy in order to achieve the outcome. So I got really interested in this idea of how can we make digital work in government really, really well and marry the two things up. And so, yes, I digress slightly. I joined the Civil Service on the graduate programme. I left that early in order to pursue that interest and that passion, really around design and around digital and our services and how we can achieve outcomes through that.
Adaobi Ifeachor I've got to tell you that’s quite an unusual journey because it's so competitive to get into the Fast Stream. To go through a process that's so competitive to get in and then go, you know what? My heart's over here. I'm going to follow this other path. You're an unusual bloke there, Jack. I think that's in a good way.
Jack Collier Yeah. I mean, a lot of people give me advice not to leave it, actually, and I definitely feel like I made the right choice. And that's because I wanted to do something, I wanted to follow my interests and do something that I was excited about. And that is what I would kind of give anyone else. I'd give anyone else the same advice, which is do what you're excited about, do what you're passionate about. And it's the same when we're talking about senior roles in an organisation. Yeah, we talk about the Senior Civil service as if it's one thing it's not. Those are just jobs, different kinds of jobs which require different kinds of skills and different kind of people to do them. The idea of kind of joining the senior civil service I find quite alienating actually. I just applied for a job that I was really excited about, kind of the right time and in the right place, I think for me.
Adaobi Ifeachor Well, I think that leads us nicely onto Emma's second clip, where I'm talking about a three-year rule that I've been thinking about. And has helped to shape my career so far. I'll be really interested to hear what you think about that.
Let's play the clip.
[music plays] One piece of advice I was given a long time ago by a mentor I really respect was that, you should have a three year rule generally. Which is sort of like, you get into a new role the first year, you don't know what you're doing. You kind of try to work out what you're doing. The second year you're doing it and the third year you kind of you should be focused on your next thing. Do you agree you're nodding along but do you agree with that because you have been here almost five years based on that three-year rule?
Emma Stace Yeah, well, I do agree with that. But also sort of it's a principle rather than a rule isn’t it. So I completely buy what you've said in terms of the sort of, the arc of progression and delivering value in an organisation. So I think a minimum of three years is what I think senior leaders or individuals accepting roles in complex programmes should be really thinking about. And then every year on from that, I guess the question is, is the challenge changing? Are you still learning? Are you still bringing energy and curiosity to the role? Have you got the role and what you were working towards, into a place where it's sustainable and you feel like you're handing over something that's better than when you found it. So, I think I would approach it as a principle rather than a rule. I mean, the job that I've been in at the DfE, it's probably the longest job I've been in for like a really long time, like since my twenties. So, it feels like the seasons have come full circle for me in the DfE [music plays]
Adaobi Ifeachor Jack You know, I'm going to ask you this question. How long have you been in role as deputy director now?
Jack Collier I have reached the three year mark Adaobi.
Adaobi Ifeachor So I can start applying for your role then, can I?
Jack Collier Well, maybe controversially, I'd probably disagree with the rule, as you put it, the kind of a three-year rule. I think what you're describing is a learning arc. Right, which is that over time you learn and you become more and more effective at the role. I personally don't think that that the arc really should ever flatten, especially in a digital and technology role. There's so much changing in the context in which we're operating, in terms of what we can do with technology, our fingertips, in terms of our teams as well. And so, that arc for me is always there's always an arc. You're always learning and becoming more effective at your role. And I think my advice there would be stay as long as you like. You know, don't feel like three years is the is the barrier in which you've got to start looking. Stay as long as you like, as long as you're interested in it, as long as you're having fun, as long as you feel like you're adding value, as long as you feel like you're learning.
I think for me, just to give you an example about Adaobi, I feel like I've always I've always been learning in this role. I joined the DfE to set up the Manchester Digital team three years ago. That role then changed to managing delivery across things like children's social care, early years and schools, it then changed again to respond to the COVID pandemic. And now it's different again where I'm leading delivery for schools in a new portfolio structure and building a different kind of team. So that's over three years. It's been a huge amount of change consistently. And so the role has always changed and always been a challenge and I think that's what I look for in a role, a bit of a challenge where you can grow and you can learn. Equally you could step into a role and find out it's not the role for you. And in those circumstances, you don't feel like you need to stay for three years. Go find the thing that excites you.
Adaobi Ifeachor I think you and Emma were saying a similar, you know, the spirit behind what you were both saying is very similar, which is that - do you feel like you're still bringing energy to the role? Do you feel like you're still learning? And if you are, then then stay. And I feel like when you were first, coming into your own, you take your first kind of career job. I found that rule of three helpful because, well, I don't know. I'm kind of just on the cusp of still being a millennial. I think I'm like, on the last year, possibly still being in on that millennial. Right. So when I kind of was starting to think about careers, I was a bit scared in a way because I was thinking, I have, I get itchy feet. I want to work on this exciting project. And then when I finish that, like, what else is happening in the world that I could kind of move to?
I think that advice is very useful to people who might be thinking about, you know, leaving after six months or something. It's kind of saying like, you know, get in there, see yourself mature, see yourself grow, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I kind of like what you said, the spirit behind it, which is really, are you still getting something from this and are you still giving something?
Jack Collier Yes. And I think probably a good takeaway from that mentality as well is that, don't beat yourself up in that first six months. In that first year, if you feel like I am struggling a little bit, you know, this is a big challenge. It's something new. I certainly found that myself. What I tell new starters now is, you know, after three months, you might think things are starting to come into place. But I think after six months, nine months, you'll start to go, Oh yeah, now I get it, now I get it. And really, until that point, you know, it's on us, it's on the team to support you, to be able to perform, to get you to that point. But it takes time and you shouldn't feel like you have that pressure to perform on day one because it is a complex organisation with complex work and you know, you're kind of a new person stepping into that is a lot of work to do in the early days, just in terms of building relationships, building knowledge, understanding the acronyms and all of those things which until you've done them, you can't perform in your role. So there is a sense of needing to build yourself up and not beat yourself up if it doesn't all fall into place on day one, two or three, you know.
Adaobi Ifeachor That's really interesting. Are you talking about the these senior civil service roles as well as just generally?
Jack Collier 100%
Adaobi Ifeachor Because if you're on the outside and you're seeing someone in a leadership role, it may seem like they present really confidently and they kind of know what they want to do. And they come in with a vision and, you know, they're holding listening sessions of stuff with their staff and all that sort of stuff. And you really feel like, all right, well, okay, they they completely know what they're doing. But are you saying like on the inside, they may well feel like they really don't know what they're doing? And that's okay if you're if you're in that bucket.
Jack Collier Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I definitely did not know what I was doing when I joined as a senior Civil Servant, you know, as a leader. But I think that's true of anyone. It's not just me and it's not just true of the senior roles. It's anyone stepping into a new environment, a new context needs time to learn that. And to an extent, you'll be making it up as you go along. The things that you described there, things like listening sessions, you know, are ways in which you can help get yourself oriented, help get your feet on the ground. As a leader, stepping into an organisation, often people have a, I think like 100 day plan and that always felt to me very scary. I didn't have a 100 day plan. I felt like I should have, but I didn't. Instead, what I did was understand what people needed from their leadership, where, what the history was in the organisation that would lead us to this point. What did my boss in that case Emma, want? Where did she want to get us and how was I going to help her get there?
So there's steps that you can fall back on, and I don't think they're particularly that different to what you do in any other role either, it's just on a different scale. And in some cases, therefore, it takes a bit more, more time, I think, to perform really effectively as a leader. I certainly felt under a lot of pressure when I joined it in my first senior role. As we talked about, I was quite young. Coming into that role was quite aware that there's probably quite a lot of eyes looking at me and so I felt a lot of pressure to perform really effectively from day one. And actually, looking back, I shouldn't have felt that way. And that therefore was my advice to anyone stepping into those leadership roles. Ask for the help, ask for the support, both from your team and your peers, and you’ll get it because people want you to succeed.
Adaobi Ifeachor So that is some really. Really useful advice for people who are new into a leadership role. But let's move to the next clip from Emma, where she's talking about the very beginning of the process, which is finding those senior roles in the first place.
[music plays] What does recruitment look like in the kind of leadership roles, leadership positions?
Emma Stace So I think well, firstly, there are fewer of them, so they're probably a lot more competitive. I mean, I kind of feel like as particularly at my level now where, you know, I'm really picky about what roles I want. But equally, the competition for the roles that I'm probably attracted to is more intense. So, I think it's more competitive. I think leadership roles are often about networking. So, I know we're going to talk about networking a lot, aren't we? And I think someone once gave me some advice, which is if you're going for a senior leadership role, and I think this is in whatever organisation you work for, so it's not Civil Service specific. The campaign for the role is beyond sending an application and turning up for an interview. I mean, you kind of need to find out as much about that organisation as you can, the people who work within it. If you know a board member or someone who's worked in the organisation, you kind of really need to immerse yourself in a kind of discovery process before you actually pitch up for an interview.
Adaobi Ifeachor For these leadership roles. In your experience, is it a case of they're not advertised? You just kind of reach out to places that you're kind of interested in working with and start that networking process?
Emma Stace Not in my experience. So I do know, some people who are much bolder than I am, who will kind of go, I'd like to work for this organization let's have a chat. So, I do have colleagues and friends who are more like that. I'm probably a bit more conservative and a bit more shy and go down the formal interview route. So, you know, kind of head-hunters often have the roles now, so, you know, kind of we'll know if there's all kind of large recruitment agencies often have some of the key executive roles. Increasingly, people are advertising on LinkedIn. So I think, you know, a good LinkedIn profile is really important. And then obviously network so, you know, kind of people know people, clearly that's an important route in to senior roles. [music plays]
Adaobi Ifeachor Wow. So I've got to ask you, Jack. What does? I love the term that Emma used there about the campaign for a role. The campaign for a role is more than just writing an application. Would you agree with that when it comes to going for a senior role here or anywhere?
Jack Collier Tricky one, actually Adaobi. And maybe that's because I haven't actually applied for many senior roles. I think what Emma describes is definitely true in terms of, if you want to maximise the chances of success in your application for a job, you know, immerse yourself. Because that's going to lead you to be able to talk more authoritatively, to be more confident in interview situations, etc.etc.
So, I think Emma provided some good advice there in terms of maximising your chances of success. However, the flip side of that is that I don't think there's kind of like a, you know, a dark underground network of black market of leadership positions going on where people are getting contacted and people are shifting around and this kind of thing. Almost all of the roles I've looked at or which I've been on interview panels for or I've been interested in or advertised, they've all been on LinkedIn. You might be approached by Head-Hunters that says, ‘Hey, we've got this role. Have a look at it and see if you're interested’. And so, I think it's important to do your homework and do your research, but that doesn't mean that you need to kind of be on the special WhatsApp or something like that, where all the best roles are going.
They're all out there and you can you can do that without necessarily being that super connected person. And actually, you know, if you're not that super connected person, if that's something that scares you a little bit and I'm probably one of those people that's not very good at networking, there are different things that you can do to help get your name out there and be that person, that a head hunter might say, ‘Hey, we're advertising this role. Will you have a look at it and apply for it?’ And that's things like; go and talk at a conference, write a blog post, get on your podcast Adaobi or host your own.
But, you know, there are things that you can do to showcase that you are passionate about what you do. Because ultimately, I've been on the inside table lots of times where we're recruiting people to senior positions.
We’re after someone first and foremost, who is extremely excited and passionate about what they do and how they do it and how they support other people to do that as well. And, you know, we all know that interviews are a awful way of of getting people through the door. But I can't think of what's the alternative. But certainly, I think having a panel of people understanding someone’s brand or someone what someone brings to the table before they even walk through the door is a massive plus, especially being on the other side of the table where you're thinking around what were they going to bring to the team, what can what can this person bring to a team. Cause it’s not about necessarily getting the best person for the job, it's about getting the best person for the role without make sense. It's not about taking all the job description tick boxes. It's about how is this person in a senior position going to lead this team, build the right culture, all those kinds of things.
Adaobi Ifeachor Yes to everything you said about the blog, raising your visibility beyond the role and company you're in. And also no, because and let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. It's because I think that you're quite an unusual chap, to be honest. Jack, like you have spoken about basically getting into a role that people 20 years older than you were wishing that they could kind of get into. Like you have, you've had perhaps the challenge of a little bit of ageism, people wondering whether you are the, you know, the intern for the month or, you know, the new deputy director. And that has had its own challenge. But I'd say. There are groups of people, particularly women, particularly people of colour, who are up against some real unconscious bias. And sometimes things that are worse than that, and you almost have to prove yourself a bit more that you're a candidate that should be taken seriously. And it 100% should not be that way at all. But I'm a realist. If I want the job, I know that I've got to put in some extra time to make
myself credible in a way that maybe, not to be rude, but maybe that a young white man who appears middle class does not have to. So that's why I would kind of say yes to all the visibility things, yes to that. But then also as Emma said, competition for the leadership roles can be fierce. And imagine that you are up against someone who does those extra things. And by extra things, I mean, yes, to all the visibility things that we've talked about. But they also do a bit of homework, find out they know that a close friend is close friends with someone on the board, that they can have a lunch, that they can just, you know, maybe have a phone call or what I would call just extra steps. And I think it's all fair in love and right. If I'm trying to get a job and I happen to know somebody, then I think I'll use that connection. And if I don't, I mean, this is getting on to controversial ground. But if I don't know somebody and that's that that's the downside to this, if you don't know somebody, you have to be bold enough to network and form connections. And I've spoken on a previous pod where I've said, you know, for my current role, I didn't know anybody in the Civil Service, but I did a bit of homework and I found some people who were doing the role that I was applying for and I reached out to them on LinkedIn and I had like a kind of remote coffee with one of the guys, and he kind of really was very honest and frank about lots of parts of the culture and the job that I was applying for, and that allowed me to speak in a more intelligent way about the role than I would have been able to if I'd just applied, you know, just the regular way. So, I'd say yes to everything you're saying. However, let's be real. Let's be real people. We know that some groups, for whatever reason. Have a taller mountain to climb. And it shouldn't be that way. But. But it is. Or there'll be more women on boards, right? There'll be more women CEOs. So that would be my, I'll give you a right to reply though Jack.
Jack Collier No, I agree with you, Adaobi, and I think, so I guess I get quite a strong emotional feeling and if someone were to say to me, you know, if you want to be successful in this role, you've got to get in touch with a board member or, you know, someone who knows someone. That, to me feels really wrong. It's definitely not how I’ve I don’t think ever got on a job, actually. And as I said, maybe that's because I'm just really rubbish at networking. But as you say, let's be realistic. I said at the start. I do think it increases your chances of being able to get, as you say, talk more intelligently at the interview, feel more confident going into the interview. My point is, it's not that not the only way to do it. And you shouldn't feel like that is a mountain that you need to climb. You know that you have to make those kinds of networks at a really senior level in order to be successful at a senior level. And there are other things that you can do. And actually, there's some really great stories, I was just listening to a podcast actually about a guy that does designer at Airbnb, and leads one of the kind of design teams at Airbnb. But Airbnb found him because of what he did and what he was at the time I think actually posting on Instagram about and I thought was really, really cool story. Now obviously that's different to Civil Service. We can't go out and find people and say, Hey, you want this job? We can go out and kind of go, Hey, it'd be great for you to apply for this job, and here's what it is. I think the other thing I'd say as a senior leader within the Civil Service is that we are in a crisis as an industry, as government and as a senior leadership kind of cadre. And that's a diversity crisis. It's an inclusion crisis. You know, it's not a diverse set of people at the top of the most digital organisations. It's not a diverse set of people, top of government digital organisations either. So it is almost, you know, one of our top responsibilities as leaders to be building the bridge and building the ladder so that that isn't a problem in two, three, four, five years time. And that's the journey that I've been on. And I'm really proud of that journey, actually, and I feel really strongly about that. And if I were to be interviewing for a position, like I'd be interviewing for my job, for example, and interviewing candidates. One of the things I'd be asking them is, how do you build those bridges? What's your story around making sure that you're supporting others on this journey as well? I think that's a really, really important thing that a leader has to be able to show in 2022. Yeah, and should have been showing for years before as well.
Adaobi Ifeachor Right. We're going to listen to the next clip from Emma, where she talks about the shape of her career.
[music plays] And tell me about that time since your twenties. Have you always been ambitious? Did you kind of say, ‘Alright, I want to get into a senior position somewhere’ and you planned your career? Or has it been more chance and sort of luck than that?
Emma Stace I would say that my twenties, I definitely didn't plan my career. So a very quick run through of my early career experience. I left university. I had no clue what I wanted to do. I remember my dad. Like pitching up at home and my dad saying, ‘You're going to have to pay some money now to stay here, so you better go get yourself a job’. I mean, that was like my level of. That level of ambition and focus when I was like in my early twenties. So I went and got a job actually working for a bank. I was a Fast Stream HR Director and it seems incredible to say that out loud now. And I lasted six months because I just thought this is not where I want to be and who I want to be working with and what I want to be working towards. So it did make me think like, okay, I don't want this job. What kind of job do I want? And in my twenties I ended up in South Africa of all places. I went there because I fell in love and ah, there, partner at the time was moving to South Africa and I kind of went with them and I was a TV producer. I made lots of television back in the day. It was called edutainment. So like Sesame Street, lots of documentaries. But then I made a really concerted effort in my late twenties to get my act together. And two big things happened to me. Number one is I became a single mother and that really gave me purpose and ambition in terms of wanting to be able to provide financially for my for my son. And I did an MBA, which I don't really remember anything of the MBA itself anymore. But what it taught me was that I had a lot of transferable skills, and it showed me that, you know, whoever I was working with, I'm a really strong collaborator. I can bring people together. I'm good at sort of identifying the issues and resolving issues. And so it really taught me that I had some transferable skills. And from now, I've probably been a little bit more aware of how I manage my own career. But I kind of have three rules, which is, number one, can you deliver impact? Number two is it aligned to my values. And number three, are we going to have some fun? That's been my guiding mantra for the past 20 years.
Adaobi Ifeachor Nice. Interesting that money has not been, not even made or even come anywhere near that list. That feels very intentional.
Emma Stace Well, I think it's you got to be paid enough to feel valued is kind of my benchmark. And certainly as a woman, I want to be paid equitably to everybody else working in the organisation. And I've been in roles where I found out that I have not been. So I know my worth. I'm prepared to negotiate for my worth. That money has never been the kind of driver. I think if it had Adaobi I’d have stayed at the bank at the first job. So I learnt that early on is that money doesn't necessarily mean you're satisfied in your career. [music plays]
Adaobi Ifeachor And now coming back from that clip from Emma. Jack. Really briefly, do you. What would you say is the most important piece of advice you can give to someone about planning their career to get to the senior Civil Service? Is it more get your foot in the door, anywhere, doing anything, even if you don't really enjoy it that much. But it will help you kind of like, with your next leap? Is it you know, think about money if that is what kind of motivates you, or something else, like what would you kind of tell people when they're thinking about planning their career?
Jack Collier Yeah. Yep, sure. And I think you probably know what I'm going to say to this Adaobi, which is that do what you're passionate about. I would say to anyone as well, don't feel like you should aim to be a, you know, a senior Civil Servant. Because as we talked about, that’s just a great in an organization. You know, what is it that you want to achieve? What do you want your career to look like? That might be, you know, I want to lead a design organization, I want to build services, I want to build a culture and environment for people to flourish and find out the things that excite you. Emma talked about going to a bank and finding out what didn't excite her, and I think that's really important too. And actually one of the great things about the Fast stream was being able to rotate through seats early on in my career where I got to try different things out and it was really through luck and chance that I ended up in a digital team and found out this is something I really, really enjoyed and was really passionate about. And I think that really carried through in terms of what I went on to do in my career. So my advice would be, do what you're excited about and you know, you'll, you'll end up in a good place. Don't try and be a specific grade or something or follow the money, you know, do what you're passionate about that excites you.
Adaobi Ifeachor Emma’s next clip was actually quite surprising. It's about the kind of tests that can be run to find the right leader. Let's play that clip.
[music plays] When it comes to the interviews themselves, though. A lot of roles that are not in those leadership positions you might go to 1 interview and maybe you were asked to complete some sort of activity present back to the panel. Are you like, I'm assuming there's more than one interview because it's such high stakes getting the right person? And are you ever asked to do something where you'll present back to people?
Emma Stace Yes. So interviews that either I've been through or my colleagues or friends who I know who are sort of operating at the leadership level in organisations. I mean typically it's a first round interview where you've gone from a long list to a short list and you'll have a first round interview and then they'll go back to the hiring manager and have a conversation around ‘We want to take these candidates through’. Typically that's probably around four or five individuals, and those four or five individuals may be asked to do things like psychometric tests, which will kind of assess your personality, maybe some verbal reasoning tests to assess like, you know, are you natural at working with numbers? Can you synthesise information really quickly and assess a position. Staff panels, so that's often really important so meeting the staff or meeting the potentially the leadership team who'll be working with you so they have a stake in who the successful candidate is. And then usually a formal panel in which you may or may not be asked to present. You know, first 5 minutes tell us what you would do in this role and what impact you might like to have would be a typical type question. [music plays]
Adaobi Ifeachor Jack, are you kind of a, are you in favour of things like psychometric tests, anything beyond like an application, a straightforward interview, like a presentation? It feels like at senior levels more is demanded. Are you kind of, is that something you would support?
Jack Collier Yes. It’s a tricky one, right? Because the heart of all of this is an interview. And we just talked about how interviews are really terrible way to understand if someone's going to perform in that role and if it's a role for them, actually. So, ideas around psychometric tests and verbal reasoning tests and things like that, are really just augmenting the interview. I would say the core of the Civil Service remains that kind of competency style of questioning in an interview environment. So unfortunately, if you want to progress within the Civil Service to a senior position, you've got to get good at interviewing. And that's because that's ultimately where it will come down to. Once you've made a sift. Once you’ve made it through the sift, you go to an interview. Now, there might be other things around that we just talked about, like psychometric tests. And but you won't, you won't fail to get role on that unless you really kind of come out extremely strangely. And the other thing I would say is quite common feature of senior Civil Service interview process is a staff panel which can often be quite nerve wracking for people walking into that kind of arena, which is where you essentially meet what who might be your future staff members and they will feedback to HR on how you interacted with those people. And I've seen that. It's really, really interesting, actually, because it might be that you hold some biases that are shown through your interaction with staff members. Now staff members feedback to HR, HR observe the interactions, and they'll feed that into your interview panel. So it helps build a better interview overall. But ultimately it's down to that application process and the interview itself.
Adaobi Ifeachor With our final clip. We get some tips from Emma for those wanting to kind of who are aspiring to senior or leadership positions.
[music plays] Is there anything else about leadership recruitment, leadership interviews that is different that you wanted to call out?
Emma Stace Yes, I think like the really big difference, and this is kind of what I tell people who I mentor and may maybe going for a leadership position for the first time, is in a junior role you'll be interviewed in terms of can the person technically do the role? Have they got the right level of skills and experience to do the role. In a leadership position I think the interview panel are much more looking for ‘Who are you? What do you value? What do you believe?’ So if you think about leadership, it's about what energy are you going to bring. What are your values? How do you lead? How do you build teams? Do you appreciate your own impact on others? So I always try and coach individuals going for their first leadership role in kind of three ways and this is really good advice that was handed to me in which I have actioned in my own career is number one, the first 5 minutes really matter. So if you can get through the first 5 minutes confidently in an assured way, it's pretty much free sailing from there on in. So if you're asked to do a presentation practice, it's practice again and again and get through those first 5 minutes in a really assured way. And then the other advice to candidates is really show up in terms of who you are, what you believe, what you value, because that's the difference, I think, between doing a junior role and interviewing for a junior role versus kind of showing up in a leadership position. So I'm really interested in how candidates learn, what mistakes they've made and whether they're mindful of those mistakes and can play that back into kind of being a stronger leader in the future. So all of that really matters. So my advice to anyone listening to this thinking, Oh my God, I'm just about to apply for a big senior leadership position is believe in yourself. Everyone's making it up all the time anyway. So there's no such thing as a perfect answer and there's no such thing as a perfect leader and really tell the story of who you are and what you believe in.
Adaobi Ifeachor Wow. So I. The first thing that comes to my mind after hearing that is, how many people and I'm specifically talking about my underrepresented groups here, women, people of colour, for example. How many people just look at the senior leadership, or leadership positions and think, you know, that's just that's not something I can achieve. You know, that's too I'm they're not going to want me or like I haven't got enough experience for this or whatever. But hearing you say that it's as much as, a large part of it is about how you sell yourself and your your values and how how you would kind of the kind of culture that you would create as a leader that is super important. And I think when you when you boil it down to that, it kind of opens the door a bit more, doesn't it? You start thinking, well, yeah, you know what? If, if, if, if nothing else, we've all worked for absolutely terrible managers, right? In the past, for whatever reason, they've been terrible. And I've always thought I've always thought to myself, thank you for being a terrible manager, because now I know how not to do it. And when I am in the position where I'm leading other people, I will create a culture this way, I’ll allow this. We all have that experience, we've all have those kinds of thoughts, and it's really nice to know that we can bring those to the table in a in a leadership interview and smash it, basically.
Emma Stace Yeah. Your response and reflection prompts me to also offer one final piece of advice on this discussion, which is if you are applying for senior leadership roles, ask to be on senior leadership panels. So if you're a Civil Servant listening to this, ask if you can be, for example, on a senior Civil Service panel, because actually there is nothing better than learning from how other people show up to an interview and listening at the end of it to the panel's remarks. And so, I'm always particularly for those I mentor, I always try and either get them on panels that I'm chairing so that they can have that experience. But equally, you know, knock down the door and say, I'd like to give it a go. Because I think you can learn a lot from just watching others, both the good and the bad Adaobi as you said.
Adaobi Ifeachor That is great advice. [music plays]
Do you have a final tip for our dear listeners that might be useful for them?
Jack Collier Yeah. So I've been doing a lot of coaching actually for people that are aspiring to move into those roles partly as well because, you know, I've been going on to shared parental leave and so I wanted someone to step up into my role. One thing that I've said to people consistently is who are you? I think Emma talks about this in the clip a little bit. What what's your brand really? Think about it as a brand. What's your brand? What do you bring to the role? What do you lead for and how do you lead? If you can answer those questions, and you can bring those out in interview. I think you've got a really good chance not of walking into any job, but walking into the right job where your brand and what you're there to do kind of fits really well into the into the job that you're applying for. And I think that's, that's worked to a degree for people that I've been coaching. It's been really interesting kind of supporting people to really get across who they are and what they can bring to a role. And that's important at a senior Civil Service kind of position, that leadership position, because you're not being asked to do a single job. You know, I, I talked about earlier all of those different things and how the role has changed. And, you know, I was hired a specific stage of DfE’s growth and we’re now at a different stage of that. But the skills that I've got and I think what I lead for has remained consistent throughout. And that is super important, I think, at this leadership level.
Adaobi Ifeachor Thank you so much, Jack. And thanks to everyone who's been listening, we hope. As usual, we hope that you enjoyed it. And also, thanks to Emma for providing these clips just before she left for the Department for Work and Pensions. We know it was a busy time, so we're glad that she was able to fill us in there. So, Jack, if people want to connect with you on the interwebs. You have a Twitter I believe, @JackCols. Is that right?
Jack Collier That's the one, I guess drop me a DM or tweet at me. I'm really happy to support people, particularly if they're interested in kind of stepping into these leadership roles. Hopefully I can help.
Adaobi Ifeachor Perfect. So if you dear listener have something you'd like us to cover in a future pod. Please do tell us. Our Twitter is DfE_DigitalTech and our blog. You can just Google it. It's DfE digital blog. You'll find us.
Thanks so much to Lou Mullan and Rosie Roff our wonderful producers and thanks from me your host Adaobi Ifeachor. Until next time, goodbye.
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