The interview panel’s perspective

In this episode, we hear from Nettie Williams, Head of Community and Communications. 

 

Nettie has been a civil servant for 22 years and has sat on several interview panels - for a variety of grade’s and roles. Here she shares her advice on how to get to the interview stage - and offers a unique perspective as a panel member. 

 

Transcription

 

[intro music plays]

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Hello. Welcome to Think Digital Act Human, a podcast from the Department for Education where we tell the everyday stories of digital specialists working on extraordinary projects. Today we're going to be talking about interview panels. For you candidates who are perhaps thinking for going for a promotion. Or maybe you're outside of the civil service and you just want to know, how does it all work? Well, you're very lucky because today we're going to be lifting the veil on that and understand how it's all made. So, our guest today, people, our guest is Nettie Williams. Some of you might be thinking, I've heard that name before, and that's because Nettie is one of the Podcast's producers. Nettie, welcome to the pod, on the front end.

 

Nettie Williams

Hi. Thank you for having me.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

So how does it feel being on the front end of things instead of in the background? 

 

Nettie Williams

Thoroughly nerve wracking. Like I'm in an interview, to be honest.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

The reason why you're a guest on the show isn't just because of your experience behind the scenes as a producer on the podcast, but you're actually someone who has held interviews. You've actually been one of the recruiters. That's right, isn't it?  

 

Nettie Williams

Yes, indeed. Many times. Many times in the civil service in different departments.  

 

Adaobi Ifeachor  

And I've only worked at the Department for Education in the Civil Service, but since I've been here, I have made a point of being on interview panels as well. And if you're outside the civil service, you should know that there are different grades. So I've kind of sat on panels for main staff and senior civil servants as well. Where's your experience lie, Nettie?  

 

Nettie Williams

My experience for recruitment is generally middle grade, sort of what we call grade seven and below. Also junior grades. So people who have maybe come in at executive officer level or a higher executive officer level, and then they worked their way up to a grade seven, what we call middle management. But often I've also recruited digital specialists, been involved in panels, recruiting digital specialists. So I've got quite an array of experience, but I haven't interviewed senior candidates like yourself, Adaobi.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Well, what I want to say first off is that I really want people to understand that when you are coming to an interview, if you're invited to an in-person interview or a remote interview, the main thing you should realise is that the panellist across the table from you, at least in our case, as in the civil service, they really want you to succeed. We're not, we're not putting people in and like putting in nasty questions and trying to trip them up.  

 

Nettie Williams

Yeah, absolutely. We want to set you up for success, which sounds like a bit of a cliché, but we really want people to shine. We're not there to catch you out. The interview, the time slot you have, it's your time to talk about what you've done at length and to be questioned about that so you can flip it. You can invert it and think this is a golden opportunity for me to talk about all the things I've asked about whether it's my voluntary work, my personal life, or my professional life. This is my time to shine and no one is there to trip me up, we're genuinely here to get the best out of you.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

So what do we mean by sifting, exactly, Nettie? 

 

Nettie Williams

So sifting. Apparently it's not a widely used term across all the sectors in recruitment. To sift is when you go through all those applications and you cross-check with your list of criteria with what the candidate has included. And I think somebody might have mentioned already in this podcast, if you put a heading by the piece of text that talks about you meeting the criteria that helps people like me get through the sift smoothly and more quickly. 

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

That that gemstone of great advice was me. And so basically what I'm doing right now is I'm jumping on civil service jobs and I'm searching for digital jobs across all of the different government departments, not just Department for Education, but you've got Ministry of Justice there, department for Work and Pensions, Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, Ministry of Defence and so on and so forth. And if I click on a senior user researcher, it's about 54,000 to 64,000, and it's a grade seven, which is a really good senior role before you get into like executive type positions in the senior civil service. It says here they're looking for three. I'm just having a look, see the location. It says these roles will be based in London. I think whatever the location says these days post-pandemic, I think you should still go for it anyway.

 

Nettie Williams

Yeah, and it's always worth asking and reaching out. And it's entirely up to you as you do that after you've submitted an application and know that you've got an interview or before you even submit an application. As Vita Shapland-Howes said on a previous podcast; do ask those questions, find out. Reach out. Get to know the people. Have that call. That's absolutely fine, do that. It makes sense. And also, yeah, that the world has changed. COVID has brought a different a different working reality and if you're in digital and technology jobs, that might mean that the flexibility is greater than what was originally stated in the form online.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

So on this particular advert, which is for a senior user researcher, I picked at random, it's for the Department for Work and Pensions. It says a bit about the department. It says a bit about the job description. So as a senior user researcher, you will be doing all these other things x, y, z. Then it says some behaviours that you'll be tested against. You'll either see stuff like, essential skills or you might see behaviours. So in this particular example that I'm using, they've said; We'll assess you against these behaviours during the selection process: Changing and improving. Communicating and influencing. Delivering at pace. 

 

If there are not that many applicants, maybe ten or less, that sort of thing, they will look at your application in reference to all of the different essential skills or behaviours. If there are loads, like I said, there were 200 on one recruitment round that I sat on a panel for then they're not going to test you against all six because frankly we haven't got that amount of time to put into sifting the applications. So we'll just test you on the top three. So that's pretty crucial to know. That means those top three behaviours or essential skills are where you really have to kind of go to town demonstrating that you know what you're talking about. So for this one, for example, the bottom behaviour or essential skill was delivering at pace. n that case what I would do is I would have a section of my interview answer, I would give it a title saying 'Delivering at pace' and under that I'd use the star method. So I'd kind of say, what was the situation where I delivered at pace? What was the task that I had to do? And it's really important you talk about what you did rather than the team, and then what was the action that you took to deliver at Pace? And then what was the result of you taking that action? And actually. It is okay if you have an example that was a bit of a disaster. That's okay. That shows a like a human side of you. As long as if it ended badly, as long as you then explain what you learnt from it, how you've taken that learning and done other things with it. 

 

Nettie Williams

Yeah, that star model is quite straightforward and I think once you get into the pattern of answering questions according to Situation, Task, Action, Result, (STAR) it's pretty straightforward. One thing I'd say is for a lot of people, they're not used to this style of interview and they're not used to the STAR. And we know that. We understand that. And it takes us back to that point about we don't want to trip people up. So that's why we ask what we call probing questions or follow up questions. So if somebody talks about the situation and the task and the action, but they don't tell us the result, they don't get to that point, we will follow up with a question saying, oh, what was the result and what was the outcome? And that's because we want you to shine. And we know that nerves can take over and you might forget to give us that fourth component of the answer. So we're here, Like I say we're on your side, and we will ask plenty of questions to make sure we get all we can out of you so that your score is better than if we hadn't asked those questions.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Well Nettie, I'm going to throw you under the bus now because I didn't tell you I was going to do this, but let's see how it goes. If I was going to ask you, you're in an interview now and I'm like, well, Nettie, thank you very much for coming for this interview to be a podcast producer. Could you give us an example of a time when you had to deliver at Pace? I'm literally making up this this question on the spot. And, Nettie, using that STAR method, how would you answer?  

 

Nettie Williams

I would always take a breath. I think it's really important for candidates to not feel rushed. You can think, you can say, bear with me, I'm just going to run this through in my mind. Also candidates are allowed to have a notepad. I'd take a deep breath. I just plan out what to say. And then I would start talking about, well, in 2017, I was leading a team and there was a ministerial ask, which was that we covered an event on social media and then I would start to talk about what the problem space was and what the task that I needed to do. And then I would go into specifics of what I did and the outcome. But what's important to remember, Adaboi, is you don't have all day to answer these questions. That's why practising beforehand at home just to get your your mouth around the words is really good because it just helps you feel a bit more prepared for the interview to think about how to tell your story, in about 5 minutes, because that's how much time per question you will have. 

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

That's such a good point. I'll tell you what I do as well as a little tip is for those three bullet points, changing and improving. Maybe you've changed something or improved whatever it is. Communicating and influencing. Influencing is probably about like stakeholders or influencing members of the team who feel quite differently from you or, you know, that kind of thing. And delivering at pace is pretty straightforward. But what I'll do is I will write those bullet points. Write those behaviours or essential skills down on a blank word document or something. And then I will do like a search online for competency based interview questions, questions that ask you, just like I did, like a time when you have demonstrated some potential thing. And so if you do that, you could put communicating competency interview question or something like that, and then you'll get like a list of them. And I will write the different, I'll write a couple of different versions of each question under each heading, and then what I'll do is I will try to come up with at least two examples for each question, and I will make sure that they are different examples from the one I put on my application. Because if the interview panel wants you to probe a bit more deeply into something you've written, they'll ask about that. But mainly if you can show like a different flavour of it, you know, like if you can share like a different example, you going to sound yourself in really good stead. And as Nettie said, practice, practice, practice. So for the communicating and influencing. I may have the one that I wrote down on my application form, but then when it comes to interview, I will have 2 really solid examples that I could talk through in the STAR method and I practised it and I feel really confident about it. So yeah. That's kind of how I would approach tackling that sort of thing.

 

Nettie Williams

Yeah, I think you have to be quite systematic. You have to be prepared and systematic, but that's good. Preparation for an interview. That that's, that's gold.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Okay. So we've sifted. We've gotten rid of the applications where just looking at their CV and seeing like, oh, they don't even remotely have any applicable experience here. And I'm immediately removing those from the pile. Then I'm kind of looking at the ones that do probably a little bit more. Am I seeing those key words, like, I have hundreds to scan through. So I'm seeing like, do I have keywords here, like what are the sorts of things they're saying? And then it starts looking good. I'll go to the application answer. Now, this is where a lot of people fall down, in my opinion, because at this stage we're not asking you for much. We want your work history and we want an application answer. And sometimes you'll see an application where someone's written maybe like a couple of sentences. I'm always really shocked when I come across this where people haven't really given an in-depth answer. On the flip side, don't write war and peace either, because all you're trying to do with this application is get an interview. You're not actually trying to get the job at this point. You're just trying to get through to an interview. So all we need to know is, those essential skills or behaviours we've asked for. Give yourself some subheadings. Write something that demonstrates, not just I have skills in influencing people, how have you? Give me an example, a specific time when you have influenced something. If you can do that under all of those points you've got yourself an interview.  

 

Nettie Williams 

There is something to add there Adaobi, on the GOV.UK platform which is where people input their, their applications. There's a thousand word limit on that page and a thousand words i t's not a lot. So if you've got to answer anything between six and eight job criteria, within a thousand words, you need to be really concise.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Or at least really hit those top three really hard. And then the other one's a bit less so. Also, here's something that's worth knowing, is that if you have a disability, I speak as someone who's neurodiverse so I know what I'm talking about here. There's a section or a checkpoint where you can say that you have a recognised disability. Now what that means is if you meet the essential criteria that we've asked for, then we will take you through to interview. It may, there may be all sorts of reasons why this application process is not bringing out your best, is not allowing you to demonstrate what you can do.  So because of that, we do allow people who show that they have all the essential skills and behaviours through to the next stage. Now that does mean that you have to kind of deliver a strong interview, but it's something to bear in mind. Don't feel, I guess I could say, because I have dyslexia, for example, I don't necessarily consider that a disability. But if it guarantees me an interview and I've shown that I can, I've shown on paper that I meet the essential skills and criteria and I'm guaranteed an interview off the back of that, I think use the assistance that is there under the law, like use the assistance that is there to allow you to shine and do your best in an interview. I know that might be a little bit controversial, but it's an option that I think you should be aware of if you do have a disability.

 

Nettie Williams

Absolutely. And also when people get to interview, we do ask them if they have any access needs that they might not have already declared. So some people like the questions to be copied and pasted into the chat, which is great because nerves can get the better of people. And to have  a question reiterated and text really helps. Also, we're setting tests, writing tests or presentations. If people need extra time to prepare that they will they will get that as well.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Okay. So we've talked  about the application process. You've been sifted, you've booked your interview day. Now it's the interview day. Nettie, what what are the... Give me some examples of things that you've experienced as a panellist where they're like the perfect examples of what you should not be doing.

 

Nettie Williams

Okay. The one that really strikes me is if you are asked to do a presentation and that presentation needs to be 5 minutes long, it should be 5 minutes long, it shouldn't be 6 minutes long or 2 minutes long. If it's in an organisation that are big on user needs, then do what is asked. And that's something I always look at because I think it's about reading instructions and meeting user needs. So stick to stick to what's asked. What I noticed in candidates is they are often very nervous, understandably so. I urge people to try and not be nervous. You know, it's a hard ask isn't it, but I find that making people comfortable, checking they've got water, maybe cracking a joke or two (I'm not talking Stand-Up Comedy) but you know, we're all humans. And also telling people about tech issues They happen to the best of us, all of us, all the time. And they will happen in interviews. And there's absolutely no need to worry about that. I see people get really anxious when there's been bandwidth problems. And it's okay to turn your camera off and you know in what is now more often than not a remote world online you know it's okay for us to switch cameras off, use the chat channel and flex. You know, these are changing times and we're very responsive to that. Nothing is set in stone and we are on your side.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

And I'd say if you, particularly if you're in person, then the kind of routine I go through... To be honest, I think I'm one of those rare people who don't really get interviews. But I certainly have some, you know, extra energy when I get into the room. Maybe that's nervous energy, who knows? But what I'll tend to do is I'll ask a question as I'm sitting down, and it's really just to give me an extra moment to breathe and settle and a way of just spending time looking at each interviewer and just kind of getting to feel more comfortable with the situation I'm in. I remember like I was going for an interview about this job reporting like I used to be a journalist, people, this is a this is a whole different side of Adaobi. But like I used to be a journalist and I was going for an interview about an African news desk job, and there was like a new minister, like the minister for like some kind of relevant government department had just been announced that day and I kind of asked a question that was relevant about that, and we chatted about that for a couple of minutes. It was really just a way of making me feel comfortable. So I've noticed, like in DfE, what tends to happen is that the first question is not marked or graded in any way. It's just just kind of breaking the ice question. 

 

Nettie Williams

Yeah, and that's a good thing. It's 5 minutes for people to chat about themselves, their motivation for applying it puts more ease. And what I would also like to say is, we all need jobs, we all need to pay our rent or mortgage. You know, people need jobs, but people also need to choose the employer as much as the employer needs to choose the person. So I really urge candidates, before you have an interview, you might be having a conversation down the pub or in a cafe the night before with your friends going, I'm really nervous and if I got the job, I wonder what the culture's like. I wonder what my boss would be like. And you've got those questions, ask them. Ask them in the interview. Be your true self. And, and if you get the reaction from us that you want, that's a good thing if you feel that we're authentic that helps you choose us for the right motivations. So ask questions that you think maybe you should ask it's absolutely fine. I love the bit of the interview where people ask me and my panel colleagues questions is my favourite bit. I think it really shows people's personality and, and it's nice to have the tables turned.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Yeah. I did actually ask once, 'So does the team ever like spend time together outside of work? And and the person was like, well, you know, it's kind of shift work, so there's not really a room for that, although sometimes we do go out for drinks together and that sort of thing. So it's kind of like a nice little way of finding out what the atmosphere, like what the team culture was like. And so yeah, feel free to kind of ask those things. I'd say in your practising of your interview questions, when you are speaking aloud, it's really important to speak them aloud, not just like read back answers you might have typed. When you're practising it be aware of like your body language like how you're sitting, whether you're fiddling with your hands or tapping on a glass of water or something. Be aware of verbal tics that you might have. And one way of checking cause you're not always aware of things that you say all the time. So one way of checking is just to practise your answer and record it as a voice memo or something and listen to it back. And you'll hear you'll start to hear things that you might not have heard before. Because when I've been on panels, sometimes I've heard people say stuff like 'like' all the time. So they might.. Let's talk about the weather and say like 'the weather, like in Manchester. Well, it's like it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of sunny today and like, that's like not really like'. And and I'm just laying on thick here but there are different kind of verbal tics that people have and they're not aware of it. And when they are answering in an interview sometimes all you can hear is that, like maybe they're saying umm or ahhh and those kinds of things if you can kind of you know, try to reduce it, it will make life easier. So those kinds of things. 

 

Nettie Williams

Good point. Good point.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Right. Is there any sort of final advice that you, I'm just really aware of everything I'm saying right now, in case people are like Adaobi, you say the word 'like' and 'sort of' and, 'you know', and kind of all the time. Well, you know what, guys? It's different when you're on a podcast. It's different when you're on a podcast. But let's go back to my final question, which was. Is there any final advice you'd like people to walk away with? You know, they've gone through the interview, they've asked their questions. Remember, don't ask about the salary at this point. Vita told us, don't ask about salary in your first interview. What else should they be thinking about?

 

Nettie Williams

There is something which is really positive for people who pass the interview but who don't actually get the job. So in the civil service we have like a benchmark. You need to score, say, over 20 in order to be considered as having passed the interview. So say four people get 20 points or more. The person with the highest number of points, say 26, will get the job. But the people who get between 25 and 20 are put on what we call reserved list. And that's a list of people who have been interviewed, who have done really well and who will be considered for jobs that have, I think is at least 50% of the same job criteria. So don't be disheartened if you don't get the job. You will be put on the reserve list. And that means there are opportunities possibly for you in the pipeline. And you can have a follow up conversation after your interview. So all is not necessarily lost. So that's a good point to note. And just ask us questions. Interview us as much as we interview you and we're on your side.

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

The last things I would say then is sometimes it can take ages to hear back. Hopefully not in your case if you're going for a job in the civil service. But sometimes it can take a long time for people to get back to you. And that's because after the interview, either immediately after, the next day maybe, even a couple of days later, all of those people who were on the panel need to come together, will discuss all of the candidates will, score each particular thing that we were asking for. So like on those behaviours that I mentioned will score the candidate on how they demonstrated something. And when we differ widely, so I might say,' Oh, that was terrible. I think I'm gonna have to give them a one' and somebody else might be 'I thought it was great I think they should..' I mean, the extremes are very unlikely, but it does happen more than you'd think. And so if I gave them a one and Nettie gave them a five, there would need to be some discussion there and some debate around what the final score would be. And there are times when you have to fight for a score for a candidate because you know, you feel that they are being marked too harshly. So you'll kind of bring up examples. So you'll talk about how they answered something in the interview and maybe even go back to their application and say that, look, we know that they have this kind of experience and, you know, you you root for people based on their performance. And if you feel like another panellist hasn't quite scored them as high as you as you think they deserve, then you will put forward your reasons on how they performed and how they wrote an application as to why. So that whole process can take a little bit of time. So don't feel disheartened if you don't hear back immediately and then, oh was there anything you wanted to say at that point, Nettie?

 

Nettie Williams

Just, there is a moderator who will be involved in all those discussions, making sure there's balance and those discussions take place fairly and the score that is agreed on is done so with transparency. So yeah, it's a healthy, it can be a healthy debate, but a necessary one. 

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Yes. And I will say it's so important that the moderators are there. If you're trying to, let's use an extreme example. If you're trying to...you like the same band as the candidate. This has never happened, by the way. This is an extreme funny example. If you like the same band as a person, you're like, 'Well, I really think they should be scored here because they also like the pretty reckless.' The moderator would jump in at that point and say like that you can't score accounts on their band choice. Don't be ridiculous. So when I say there's debates, it's a it's a healthy debate based on the evidence that was provided in the interview and in the application forms. And yeah, I think that's kind of it. I guess the thing is, hopefully if you do decide to go through this process, you'll notice that it's quite a diverse group of panellists, and that's because we want to make sure we're representing the candidates who are applying and that they feel confident that. You know, when you go for an interview, you also see someone who's like you or you can see yourself in that organisation by the people who are sitting on the panel. Nettie, is there anything final, final. You want to say before we wind this up?

 

Nettie Williams

 think you've covered it all, Adaobi. Thank you. That was really useful. I've learnt stuff too. 

 

Adaobi Ifeachor

Awesome. So thank you to everyone who's been listening. We hope that you really enjoyed it if you did, and even if you didn't, we'd love to hear from you and get some feedback on how we're doing. So our Twitter is  DfE_DigitalTech and our blog is easily findable on Google, DfE Digital and Technology Blog. Thanks so much to my guest pod producer Nettie Williams. Nettie, where can people find you on the interwebs? 

 

Nettie Williams

They can find me at nettie noodles. @nettienoodles on Twitter. 

 

Adaobi Ifeachor 

Awesome. Thanks, everyone. Speak to you next time. Bye.